Punishment Tree

It's been awhile since I last posted. I've been busy with various things, one of those being a new website I have made called Punishment Tree. It has taken off some now so I thought I'd talk about it here.

What is Punishment Tree?

Punishment Tree features articles, stories, links, forums, a wiki, and an image gallery. Users are free to submit content to almost every part of the site. This site is independent and not subject to shut down by yahoo like some groups have been in the past.

What are the goals for Punishment Tree?

First and foremost Punishment Tree was created to be a source of information on disciplinary techniques. It also should serve as a place to meet people with similar interests. The disciplinary practices mentioned on the site are intended to be used on females of varying age. So whether you are a high school or college age daughter who is spanked, a parent looking for information, a man or woman in a domestic discipline relationship, or just someone looking for friends with an interest in discipline, Punishment Tree is for you.

So I'd really like it if everyone reading this would visit and sign up. Remember it is just starting off, so contributions are really appreciated. This especially goes for articles and stories. If you'd like to add some of your work please submit through the site or contact me.

http://www.punishmenttree.com/

In the News: West Texas Polygamist Ranch Raided

I am sure many of you have heard of this story in the news recently. Pictures of people dressed as if from a different era, looking more suited to be from the time period of the Primrose Girls rather than modern day. I'd like to take a minute to go over it briefly and share my thoughts. I want to make it clear though that I am far from an expert on this news story. I have only read over some of the media coverage on the internet. So take everything I say here with a grain of salt. First off, a quote from msnbc which sums up what has happened.

"ELDORADO, Texas - Officials on Monday announced that 534 women and children — more than twice as many as had been earlier reported — were removed from a polygamist compound and that all 401 children have been placed in state custody because a judge deemed them in imminent danger of physical abuse."

"The dayslong raid on the sprawling compound built by the now-jailed Jeffs was sparked by a 16-year-old girl's call to authorities that she was being abused and that girls as young as 14 and 15 were being forced into marriages with much older men."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23993440/

It is easy to follow news coverage like this and see it in a one sided manner. They paint of a picture of beating, abuse, rape, and forced marriages for young girls and women. It is made to seem like some kind of molester paradise or hell on earth. Is it really like that though?

Let's take a minute to examine the facts from the start with our skepticism turned up high. A 16 year old calls saying she is abused physically and sexually, basically saying she has been beaten and raped. Who knows exactly what she said over the phone at this point, we only know what we have been told second hand. When someone says "beaten" it usually brings up images of terrible abuse involving broken bones and bleeding. Is that really what it means in this context?

I will quote now from a book called "Escape" co-authored by Carolyn Jessop, a woman who was born into a FLDS community. She has been on the news lately.

"In private, my mother was depressed and volatile. She beat us almost every day. The range was anything from several small swats on the behind to a lengthy whipping with a belt."
http://www.diesel-ebooks.com/cgi-bin/chapter.pl?isbn=9780767927567

So basically several small swats on the behind is considered beating. Even if we are talking about a belt whipping I'm sure most reading this would agree that a 16 year old girl getting the belt is hardly a news story. Putting the beating aside, what about the rape? When you hear the word rape you think about a girl being held down and violated while struggling to get away. Of course there is another kind of rape. The kind called statutory rape, where even if the girl was totally consenting, the male would be sent to prison. Which kind of rape is it then?

The goal of this community is obviously to marry off girls as young as possible in order to start birthing children. The entire concept of polygamy facilitates that goal. Kind of like having one rooster in a hen house. Is this wrong? I honestly don't know. What I do know is that it is a very "American" idea to break off and seek freedom from religious persecution. Why should the government involve itself in family matters? If one or two girls call about abuse should they send in swat teams to extract over 500 women and children from the community in response? We may not agree with their values, but it is still sad to see their way of life being attacked so viciously.

The most interesting part of this is the media's response to the allegations of abuse. They call it "beating" over and over but never say what that actually entails. I wonder if they purposely shy away from saying spanking because they are afraid some people might agree with it as a disciplinary tool. Even if they did mention spanking children, would they ever mention wife spanking? No, I think not. It would always be referred to as beating or abuse. What does everyone else think about this and the news story? Please feel free to comment here even if you totally disagree with what I've said. Hate mail would be welcome too. I am surprised I haven't gotten any of that yet over some of the posts in this blog.

Maintenance Discipline

My favorite topics are the ones that are controversial. The concept of maintenance discipline definitely falls under this category. For those who are not familiar with it, maintenance discipline is a punishment given for a general cause or for no specific cause at all. An example of this might be if a girl receives a spanking once a month, once a week, or at any chosen interval of time regardless of how her behavior has been. Another example would be if a girl has been well behaved and not earned herself any punishments for a certain length of time, she is given maintenance discipline.

The controversy starts when people see this as a punishment without justification. A girl might ask "why should I be punished if I have been behaving?" Some might think that if a girl successfully goes a length of time without earning herself any punishment then it would be counterproductive to give her maintenance discipline. It may come off as being cruel and unusual to many who spank for discipline to do it without any direct cause.

What is the purpose of maintenance discipline? There are many different reasons I've heard for this, but some of the popular ones are these. It could act as a simple reminder to behave in the near future. It could be for accumulated minor misbehaviors that have gone without punishment. A reminder of who is in charge. Stress relief for either the spanker or the spankee. A preemptive measure against future misbehavior. An attempt to directly influence a girl's general attitude. It even could be a way to show a girl that she is loved.

How severe should maintenance spanking be? I find that for most this ranges from being a light punishment to one that is equal to a true disciplinary spanking for misbehavior. It may not seem fair to give a harsh spanking for no direct cause, yet it could also be argued that there is no point in giving a spanking if it is not going to leave an impression on the girl. If the goal is for it to be a reminder of what a spanking feels like, then it makes sense for it to be like a typical spanking for misbehavior. If it is about addressing minor misbehaviors or showing love then perhaps a lighter spanking could work. At any level of severity there will still be the element of shame that comes from losing clothing, being on display for the spanking or corner time, and of course being spanked like a child.

There are a few articles on this around online, but I thought I'd point one out in particular. Sir Don wrote a great article about how maintenance discipline can work in a Christian domestic discipline relationship between husband and wife. Here is a link to that article. http://www.christiandomesticdiscipline.com/maintenancediscipline.html

I have updated this to include a post made by the very popular and ever interesting Angie. She reposts some comments she made on the LDD site article about maintenance discipline. Thank you for pointing this out Angie. Here is a direct link the post on her 360. Do yourself a favor and check out all her other posts too if you haven't already. http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-81KbBQY.b60U0_uzl5TSoGmRAdE-?cq=1&p=56

It is difficult to find a picture that represents something as abstract as maintenance discipline. I chose a piece of art created by a talented artist named Roger Benson. It was created in black and white and later colorized by FST. We can't know the circumstances of the two girls being disciplined in this illustration, but one assumption could be that they are receiving some sort of maintenance discipline. The two parents work as a team, the mother first collecting panties so that the father can do the work of warming the girls' bare bottoms. If indeed two girls were living under the same roof it makes sense that they would be given maintenance at the same time. But what about the mother? Does she not receive maintenance discipline? Is she allowed enough dignity by her husband to take hers later in private?

Mouth Soaping

Another one of the many possible side dishes often served with a main course of spanking, mouth soaping is a punishment to be feared. Although it is most often given as discipline in response to foul language, it can also be used for backtalk or just general misbehavior.

Just as a spanking can cause lingering pain, mouth soaping usually causes a lingering taste. This is especially true if the girl being soaped is not allowed to rinse it out as much as she'd like to. A simple grounding or removal of privileges might be met with a "whatever" attitude by older girls or women. The benefit of mouth soaping and spanking is that they are very difficult punishments to ignore in such a way.

While mouth soaping can be a punishment on its own, usually it is given before a spanking. I have also heard of it being used after or during. The girl might be led to a sink where a lathered bar is worked around her mouth for awhile or she may have to bite down and keep a bar in her mouth during her spanking or corner time. There are doubtless many other variations on this involving liquid soap and water mixtures, washcloths, cutting soaps to size, etc.

Knowing that a mouth soaping will make a girl drool a lot of soap, it makes sense for her to be without clothing for it. This also helps ensure she will be cooperative. If she is being difficult it can often be resolved with a few quick spanks to her bare bottom.

It is important to understand that even though most soaps are non-toxic(make sure the one being used is!), they probably can still be poisonous if too much is ingested. The same can also be said for other things like alcohol, salt, and even water. For this reason many people advise against using liquid soap, as it is easier to swallow high concentrations of it. The goal should be to get the soap into every part of a girl's mouth, not into her stomach.

Yahoo mash

As far as I can tell, no 360 friend invites are going through. All attempts to send an invite will fail. Who knows if this problem will ever be fixed. It certainly is not a priority with 360 being phased out soon. In the meantime I thought it would be nice to try something new.

Recently I got an invite to yahoo mash, which is in beta. It is something like a social networking site like facebook or 360. There is a friends list on it that actually works for adding friends, unlike 360. You can add or remove modules and some let you insert html, so it is more customizable than most things. The gimmick of mash is that you can edit your friend's pages. If nothing else it is a fun toy to play with and worth checking out.

If you are reading this and have not yet been invited to mash, contact me for one. This especially applies to people who have tried and failed to invite me as a 360 friend. Whether by 360 message, IM, or comment to this post, send me your email address and I will invite you. Invite your friends too once you get in. Let's make use of this thing!

Holidays & Birthdays

How often does a special day like a holiday or birthday end up being synonymous with discipline? For many girls easter weekend and spring break meant coming back home to visit family. Others attended large family gatherings with relatives. And still others went on some sort of vacation trip. Whether the discipline is intended to correct issues that have come up while away, a reminder to behave in the future, to maintain good behavior on a vacation, or as necessary for misbehavior during family events, there are plenty of valid reasons for correction to occur on these special days.

There are of course some who feel that holidays should be a time of reprieve for girls who misbehave. Days like these can often be stressful though, and allowing a girl to act as she wants without any fear of punishment probably isn't a good idea. The majority of people probably treat holidays like any other day though for purposes of discipline.

I'm sure most people have heard of birthday spankings. A girl's birthday seems an appropriate day to spank her in front of family and possibly friends. It is a rare chance for her to be the center of attention, and presents a good setting to give her a reminder to behave through embarrassment. If you've heard the term "birthday suit" then you might see how it applies to this day. It makes sense for a girl to be wearing her birthday suit during her spanking, or for part or the whole of the day.

The attached art depicts a girl obviously arriving from college. This woman, possibly a mother, aunt, or grandmother, immediately takes her clothes and pulls her by the arm towards the woodshed, switch in hand. The suitcase on the ground and shocked look on the girl's face lets you know it happened as soon as she arrived. This was probably not the welcome she was expecting, but it is a fine way to help her remember the rules and consequences of breaking them, or even learning them for the first time, now that she will be staying there.

On a final note, I saw something interesting on Wikipedia regarding Easter. Here is a quote and a link to the page.

"In the Czech Republic and Slovakia, a tradition of spanking or whipping is carried out on Easter Monday. In the morning, men spank women with a special handmade whip called pomlázka (in Czech) or korbáč (in Slovak), or, in eastern Moravia and Slovakia, throw cold water on them. The pomlázka/korbáč consists of eight, twelve or even twenty-four withies (willow rods), is usually from half a meter to two meters long and decorated with colored ribbons at the end. It must be mentioned that spanking normally is not painful or intended to cause suffering. A legend says that women should be spanked in order to keep their health and beauty during whole next year."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter

It certainly sounds like a fun tradition.

CDD Blog, LDD Blog, and The Primrose Girls

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Forced Nudity

When spanking is used as a primary method of punishment, there are a few different opinions concerning which articles of clothing should be removed, if any. It is possible to spank without any removal of clothing of course, but I think most people at least feel the bottom should be bared. Baring has the obvious advantage of allowing the spanker to see what damage is being done to the girl's bottom. Not to mention it is also embarrassing for the girl.

In a previous blog entry poll concerning the importance of embarrassment when disciplining, the majority hold the opinion that embarrassment is key to punishment. If this is true then taking a girl's top, thus rendering her naked, makes a lot of sense. There is no doubt that being topless with breasts exposed is more shameful to the girl being spanked.

What to do about returning clothing after the spanking is different among many people of course, but the major ideas I have found are these. Some girls get clothing back right after the spanking is over, some after corner time, and others have to go without for even longer than that. When a girl is forbidden clothing for a certain period of time it really is a punishment in itself.

In a previous post I wrote some about how my cousin was spanked growing up. One of the rules she had concerning being spanked was that whatever clothing was lost stayed off until next morning. This either meant she would go bare bottom or naked for the rest of the day, depending on what was removed when she was spanked. This was something like grounding her considering she wouldn't want to leave the house sans clothing. In another sense it was the total opposite because she wasn't allowed to hide herself in her room. In any case it was embarrassing for her and made getting spanked that much worse.

There are other girls still who lose clothing privileges for even longer than that. This could be for a few days, a weekend, a week, a month, or even more. You can really see at this point how forced nudity can be a dreaded punishment all on it's own even without spanking. Taking clothing privileges becomes like taking away computer time, phone, car keys, or TV. Still in any of those cases where privileges are taken, a girl may choose to disobey and pretend she somehow isn't being punished. The threat of a spanking would do much to prevent that.

One last thing I have found interesting is what is done with clothing after it is taken from a girl. In my cousin's case it always went to the hamper. There are other things that are done with removed clothing which seem like great ideas to me. Like hanging them up somewhere around the house, in front of a window, or outside. They would of course serve the purpose of allowing anyone who sees them to know a girl is being punished. I can also see how it would be somewhat like a symbol of defeat, akin to hanging a flag upside down. Does that make sense to anyone besides me?

I hope everyone had, is having, or is going to have a wonderful spring break by the way. And a wonderful easter weekend too. It certainly is coming around early this year.

Yahoo 360 Problems

It has come to my attention that friend invites on yahoo 360 don't always seem to go through. This means that some people I've attempted to invite never received them. This makes things difficult because I can't know if an invite was ignored, not read before it expired, or was just never received at all. It is safe to assume this is true for all 360 users.

I have not ignored any of the invites I have gotten so far. If you have tried to invite me and got no response, it is definitely because I never received your invite. If this is the case please try again. It is interesting to chat with new people and I would really hate to think I am missing out due to technical issues. If invites fail just post a comment to this entry and I will try to invite you. Even if the comment system is buggy and gives errors, at least you can tell when they are posted (if you hit refresh enough times that is).

In case anyone isn't aware, yahoo 360 will be transfered into a new yahoo blogging/friends/profile system this year. Hopefully when it is rolled out it will be mostly bug free from the start.

Happy Saint Patrick's day to everyone by the way. Attached is a relevant illustration by endart in celebration of this holiday.

Video: Spoiled girl throws tantrum

Has anyone seen this video? It is a nice example of what can happen if girl grows up without any sort of discipline. She throws a tantrum over getting a Lexus on the wrong day and even curses at her mother over it. In front of a nationwide audience no less. Is anyone else as shocked over this as I am?

Disciplining in Public

The idea of disciplining a girl in public is one that I know some people are strongly against. To quote one girl I talked with loosely, "it is between my mother and me, nobody else." This seems true at first glance, but a girl's behavior can have an affect on anyone she comes into contact with. In the picture from my previous post the boy was certainly a victim of the girl's misbehavior. Most would agree that he deserved to see justice done. But what if a girl misbehaves in a public place in front of strangers?

The main issue of course is not appeasing the people who may have seen a girl misbehave, rather it is about making sure the girl does not repeat the same misbehavior in public again. Waiting until later at home seems viable, but delaying punishment might give a girl a sense of being immune while she is in public. This would cause further misbehavior. The same might be true if she knew public punishments would be excessively mild or without any loss of clothing. It is understandable that a full punishment would not be able to take place in public, but it should still be a significant one. Punishing again or more at home later is a given.

If we assume embarrassment is an important part of the disciplinary process, doesn't punishing in public make sense? The added embarrassment from being punished in front of others like a child would certainly drive the lesson home that much stronger. This would encourage good behavior in public.

It goes without saying that some places are unsuited to punish in no matter what happens. Places like a public library or the movies for example, where it is important to be quiet and let others focus. Yet even those locations have bathrooms or parking lots that would offer a place to discipline. It makes sense that a public punishment would be a spectacle and cause some people to stare, but it shouldn't be a direct annoyance to strangers. Imposing too heavily upon people unknown to you isn't a good idea.

Although the punishment in many people's minds would mostly consist of bare bottom spanking it could be other things too. Simply taking away clothing on the spot or having a girl wear some sort of punishment outfit might be enough alone without spanking. I have even heard of applying burning creme. I'd be interested to hear what other methods people use when they deal with misbehavior in public.

Importance of embarrassment

Here is a great piece of art by Eve. I like how she puts a small background story on most of her work, it really adds a lot to it. In this one a girl of 19 receives a spanking from a boy she had been previously tormenting while her mother holds her still. Notice that the mother employs the original otk position to keep her daughter from escaping the punishment from the boy with the ruler.

In a situation like this the mother could have simply spanked her daughter in private at home over the offense, yet she chose to bring in the boy from next door. This was a good idea for two reasons. First, the boy who was wronged would most certainly gain a sense of satisfaction over seeing his tormentor punished for her misbehavior. If the mother had decided to spank her daughter in privacy the boy would have still harbored resentment after. Second, the added embarrassment of the boy seeing her bared, crying, and begging is sure to make the punishment more memorable for the daughter. After a punishment like that the daughter will be much less likely to misbehave around the boy since he knows she is subject to being spanked. Thinking along those lines it makes a lot of sense for people who regularly interact with a girl to be informed of the method in which she is disciplined beforehand.

A poll over whether or not the girl in the art deserved to be spanked by the boy would likely be pointless. I'm sure most would agree she deserved no less. Instead I will make a poll over the more general issue of the importance of embarrassment or humiliation during punishments. Is spanking just about the stinging pain? Or is pain only a step towards the goal of putting a girl in her place through humiliation? Are punishments involving embarrassment only and no spanking effective?

Women's Rights

Another issue that is somewhat controversial is that of women's rights. How do people feel about this? Assume we are talking about the USA. Should provisions exist for the use of traditional discipline by husbands with their wives? Should more laws exist to assure equality and fairness in the workplace between men and women?

People I have spoken with have had thoughts that ran from more equality is needed for women at work and home to women shouldn't be allowed to divorce or have careers. I think it is important to realize that issues like this aren't always one way or the other. Someone might feel a certain aspect should be more traditional while another should be more progressive.

One idea I have heard more than one person express is that girls should not be considered legal adults until they marry. This would circumvent some of the issues of women's rights in a sense. It would mean that until marriage a female would be subject to the rules and discipline of parents or legal guardian. Is this a good idea? A bad one? I'd love to hear from others on this and other issues on women's rights. A poll is far too simple to gain any meaningful statistics on how people feel about this. I will include one though regarding the issue of when a girl should be considered a legal adult.

Valid areas to spank

After speaking with many people I have realized that there are many similarities between traditional punishments, but there are also many differences. One thing that I find interesting is what area is typically covered in a spanking. If the goal is to leave a more lasting impression on a girl, the idea of spreading out the area of a spanking seems preferable versus giving a more severe spanking focused on only the bottom, which could lead to extensive bruising or blistering.

Traditionally when a spanking is given the area to be reddened is the bare bottom. It is very possible to give an effective spanking working only on the bottom, but there are other tender areas that can be effective to spank. In many cases the backs of a girl's thighs may be spanked. This seems an obvious extension of spanking the bottom and is usually easy to spank in the same position and with the same implement. Both bottom and backs of thighs are padded and tender areas that are safe to spank in most situations.

Beyond bottom and backs of thighs there are other commonly used areas nature has provided which can be more time consuming or difficult to spank. Some of these include palms, inner thighs, between bottom cheeks, breasts or other places. Would reddening palms be worth the time in most cases? This seems more a punishment to be used when trying to preserve a girl's dignity by not baring her. Preserving dignity shouldn't be a concern in most situations anyways, so this seems not worth it to me.

Spanking inner thighs and between cheeks makes more sense. These are both very tender areas. This also seems like more of a natural extension of spanking bottom and backs of thighs. Though getting to inner thighs may require changing positions, and spanking between cheeks may require changing implement. Spanking these areas will certainly take more time to do, but the results would probably be worth it.

Some people would feel that spanking breasts is an offensive idea. I try to keep an open mind about things like this. It goes without saying that this is something only suited to a female who is a legal adult or closer to being one than she is a child. The breasts seem like a valid area, being both tender and padded. From what I have heard it can be very painful as well, which does make it worth the time. Difficulties I can see would be doing this with an uncooperative woman. No doubt the urge for her to cover with hands or arms would be great.

I'd like to hear from others about what areas they think are valid ones. I am a fan of polls as it allows for people to express their opinion quickly without needing to write comments. I'll include one here and hopefully in future posts as well.

Some thoughts on my interest in discipline

I assume my interest in discipline comes from a period of time when I was growing up. Although I was not spanked more than a handful of times when I was perhaps 6 or so, I do have a cousin who was spanked regularly until she moved out at 19. She is a year younger than myself.

When I first witnessed my cousin get spanked she was 14. This of course was fascinating to me. From then on I tried to be around to see her get spanked as often as I could. I also never hesitated to inform her mother when I felt she was violating rules or in need of correction. I don't consider my reaction to be special at all. It seems to me that most people in my situation would have responded the same. When my cousin was 15 I was given the authority to spank her myself. This was a bit of a change, but I had already been helping some with her spankings prior to that. Not to mention that my reporting of my cousin's actions had caused her to receive many punishments she would have otherwise not gotten.

Even though I was only a year older, my cousin was spanked while I was not. Her mother felt that spankings are a girl's punishment. My cousin not only felt this was unfair, she also felt that she was too old to be spanked. I thought a lot about things like that growing up and reached some firm conclusions regarding those issues. I believe spanking is a punishment for children, girls, and women. No girl is ever too old to be spanked. I realize that some don't share these views and may in fact react with anger at hearing them, but I won't lie about what I think. If nothing else the internet is a great medium for understanding how other people feel. I am always curious to know about what other people believe in, even if it conflicts with my own views.

To liven up an otherwise boring post here I have decided to attach another commonly seen illustration. Barb is a talented artist, I only wish she would make more art depicting females like this one versus the majority that don't.

The "original" OTK position

When someone says OTK one usually thinks of the over the knee position in which a girl's legs are draped perpendicularly across the thighs of the person spanking her. An article up at the CDD site labeled "Origins of OTK" points out that the position most people refer to as OTK is not the original position used with the term.

The "original" OTK position is when the spankee straddles the spanker's thigh and positions her upper torso to one side of the spanker. This means that the spankee's legs will be parallel to the spanker's legs. This may be hard to imagine so I have included a popular illustration of the "original" OTK position.

It should be noted though that it is preferable for the spanker to be sitting on a bed so that the spankee's upper torso is supported. The illustration makes sense for spanking a younger girl, but would probably prove unstable for an older daughter or wife. Also remember that if a girl was spanked in the original OTK position while over a bed, she would probably be straddling the spanker's left thigh instead of the right as depicted here. Here is a small excerpt from the CDD article followed by a link to the full thing. It is definetly worth a read.

"The following OTK position for disciplining wives is adapted from a method used and recommended by a registered nurse to paddle high school and college aged daughters. It is suggested in this forum because, as experienced husbands and fathers are aware, there is not much difference in paddling a rebellious teenager or her difficult mother. The preliminaries, procedures and product can be quite similar.

A common problem is finding a suitable alternative to lap positioning with taller females. When compared to over the lap - which older women often despise because, unless the woman is petite, it can be anything from awkward to precarious - the original OTK is safe and comfortable.

Over the lap positioning, with the husband seated on a couch or bed, attempts to duplicate the original OTK for the wife's torso, but fails to resolve the difficulty of what to do with about the legs. For reasons explained below - i.e., wedged positioning and leg pinning if necessary - the original OTK does away with distracting concerns over *making* the wife stay in *position*."
Origins of OTK

The article shows that the original OTK is a valid positon and better in many respects than the commonly known OTK position. Why then is it used so rarley in comparison? I'd be very interested to hear comments from girls who have been spanked in this original OTK position.

Entry for February 10, 2008

Trying to mess around with this 360 stuff and see how it goes.